Παράλειψη "Οδός" και "Λεωφόρος" στο tag name και name:el

[Zeptomoon]

Although this thread has been quiet for three years, it seems that the issue is not quite agreed upon. And some users might still read this. So I want to give a balance to the discussion here. Some comments on the reasons why we should (supposedly) not use any prefix, such as Οδός or Λεωφόρος or Πλατεία or …?
This is no offence against Nikos, who made some interesting points, I just choose his post, because he has nicely listed some common reasons that are brought up.

(Sorry for the automatic translation used below!!)

@NikosSkouteris

The reasons should not write the prefix “Street” are many.

The main reason is that all pathways are pathways. There is no way to find a street that is something else (not talking about the avenues in which if you use the prefix “Avenue” but we will have a problem again with the next word). It is therefore meaningless and redundant.

As you said yourself (in the parentheses) it is not meaningless or redundant, since some streets are not odos, but leoforos or platia. And maybe there are other prefixes too?

@NikosSkouteris

Second: The prefix “Street” hides information to the end user (and in the header, and the data field) in GPS devices and elsewhere. I recall that the Greek prefix in front and enters entirely in contrast with other languages coming in at the end and abbreviated (St.). We will have something like “Direction in Street A …” or “Next shift in Street A …” which is ugly and functional as well as aesthetic (more correctly: “Next turn to Anaxagoras”). It’s a little more dangerous for the driver to be at a glance to see something right on the screen instead of a hidden road. We are talking about devices of all ages and features.

The purpose of the data behind OpenStreetMap is not only to render maps or make navigation devices. Those are important use cases, but not the only ones.
If a renderer or navigator is not able to cut out “odos” (if this is wanted) then it’s easy to do this in software. (I’m not a developer, but I do code casually and this is a one-liner.)

@NikosSkouteris

Thirdly: Across Greece users preferred to import the street names without the prefix “Street”. In some regions of Thessaloniki only (as far as I have seen) have this prefix is incongruous. Thus losing the uniformity of the map. Easier would erase the “Street” by some roads instead add to all the others.

As far as I see, the uniformity is not lost in Thessaloniki, since the name= tag contains the same data. (The main part of the street name without “odos”.)
This is not about what is more easy to erase or to do now, but what is more useful in the future.

@NikosSkouteris

Fourth: All the “official” manufacturers do not use the prefix only to their web interfaces because the screen of a PC has space.

a) Which “official” manufacturers are you referring to? Google? (Probably they do not have the map data available, either.)
b) This is not only about how to make the map look nice. (Don’t do “tagging for the renderer.”) It’s also about how to maintain a comprehensive database for many diverse applications.

@NikosSkouteris

Fifth: the prefix “grows” the map difficult do the job of search engines.

I absolutely doubt that search engines (who can understand much more difficult semantics) have a problem with the prefix, which is additional information.

@NikosSkouteris

Sixthly: the people who make maps are not programmers (I’m one of the few exceptions) and can not make scripts or programs for any juggling a typical useless and redundant. Besides the “Ιερά οδός” would result as “Οδός Ιερά οδός.” Besides if you start adding and other difficulties in the map makers (already several differences with any of the various devices and not only) will slowly be withdrawn if they see their product be tsapatsodouleia.

People who install renderers and make routing applications are probably programmers, or at least they know how to do “sed s/name:odos/name:/” or something similar.
Besides, the “Ιερά οδός” would NOT result in “Οδός Ιερά οδός” since the official name of the street is “Ιερά οδός”, as can be seen here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9926703,23.6772992,3a,16.2y,156.09h,89.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s53zaDk15Rj1QHxZ-7-JXQA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US

If anyone wants to make a map without “odos”, then (s)he needs to have a script that removes these before rendering, in any case. Because (at the moment) we can not expect all roads to lack the “odos” or “leoforos”.

@NikosSkouteris

In the OSM I have a dual job. First update the database and secondly I make one of my own map (http://skouteris.wordpress.com/gps/greecemap/). Besides I am and user GPS devices and hiker. Therefore, I have “seen” the map at all its stages. In as long as I deal with the whole issue of one thing there ever I wondered: if the road on which I move is street. But it could be something else?

Yes, “leoforos”. Or “plateia” or maybe something else also?
I appreciate that you are both contributing to the map and making an OSM-based map available for users. But maybe other people have other preferences and would like to see the full name. Or maybe there’s another use, where the full name is needed. Maybe someone wants not make a map, but to make statisticts of the average street-name-length in the different neighbourhoods. Keep up the great work you are doing inside the map and around it. Just let’s leave space for other use cases also. It’s easy to cut-out the “odos” automatically, it’s impossible to add it if it’s missing! (Since you can not be sure it is missing because it is in fact “odos” or maybe just because the mapper didn’t know it.)

@NikosSkouteris

Finally, we must see the issue from the perspective of the end user, because the raison d’être of OSM is this: have some utility. So any information we have to end users as they’re thinking about and how would our work more easily and securely.

I agree, but (as I said) making a 2D street map (for a small screen) is not the only use case. It’s the most common, but not the only:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_tag_graph.png
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM2World
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:FHRS_Postcode_OSM_Highway.jpeg
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:QGIS_supermarkets_bus_stops.png

With all the above said (in order to show that there’s another side of the book) I want to leave this decision up the Greek community. And if you really think, that there’s absolutely zero information in having Οδός or Λεωφόρος or Πλατεία in the name, then so be it. (Personally I think we’re loosing something. Something small, but something…)

And if we can say that we argee more or less, then let’s write our decision here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Greece

At the moment this section advises to transliterate “Οδός” to “Odos” but then:

• omit Οδός in the Greek name:el
• do NOT omit Λεωφόρος
• (does not mention Πλατεία or other)
• Transliterate in int_name and here it says omit “Odos” in english (eg. “Stadou” or “Leoforos Dimokratias”)
• Translate in name:en (Democracy Avenue)

If we choose to keep “Λεωφόρος”, then why not keep also “Οδός”? That would be much more consistent.
The above has the problem, that we can not know: If there is no “Οδός” in the name:el, then is it really “Οδός” or maybe someone just forgot to put the “Λεωφόρος” (or even deleted it - happens! https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/41466890/history ).

Sorry to wake up the dead, but this one is a zombie!
Let’s decide and rest in peace!

Since consensus seems to be difficult to achieve, I suggest we vote:

NONE = Omit both “Οδός” and “Λεωφόρος” from the name. (But keep “Πλατεία” or whatever. And don’t bother about name:prefix)
ALL = Keep all prefixes, Οδός", “Λεωφόρος”, “Πλατεία”, whatever inside the name= tag.
SOME = Omit only “Οδός”, but keep prefixes “Λεωφόρος”, “Πλατεία”, whatever inside the name= tag.
PREFIX = Put all prefixes in the name:prefix tag and remove “Οδός” and “Λεωφόρος” (but not “Πλατεία”, etc) from the name= tag.

Other voting systems welcome, but let’s collect some votes, get this off the table and make it a Greek standard.
(I believe it’s best to keep the full name, but I don’t vote.)
Can we collect maybe 10 or more votes here to have a good basis to make it “decided”?